tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post1410383583433394582..comments2023-06-11T00:49:23.591-07:00Comments on Charisms on Campus: Sola Scriptura...thoughts.Charisms on Campushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14312118662106641305noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-89647192168150907962010-01-24T14:21:55.836-08:002010-01-24T14:21:55.836-08:00I definitely respect your beliefs Lucy, and I thin...I definitely respect your beliefs Lucy, and I think many of the things you are doing are commendable - such as not watching television because of the negative things that can be on it. I spent several years of my life without a TV for the same reason, but I also don't believe that can ever be binding on someone. I also have very different beliefs about the authority of the Church on matters such as Head Coverings (we Catholics believe the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth, not the Bible.) <br /><br />God Bless and thanks for sharing that with us!~Joseph the Workerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07512362705041608396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-88499476009945307072010-01-24T14:17:10.991-08:002010-01-24T14:17:10.991-08:00I have forgot to say that this Duggars family are ...I have forgot to say that this Duggars family are not at all Anabaptist.I believe that conservative Americans are into this family?Lucyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10832572614630264634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-46517180438765697432010-01-24T14:09:36.402-08:002010-01-24T14:09:36.402-08:00Titus 3:10-11 says to warn that person on 2 occasi...Titus 3:10-11 says to warn that person on 2 occasions and if he/she does not repent to have nothing to do with them.1 Corinthians 5:11-13 says not to share food with them.<br /><br />It sounds harsh and exclusive, but it's in the NT and it's a way of encouraging repentance.The Catholic church does this (excommunication), the J.W's do it, the church I grew up in did it on a lesser scale with a shunned person being denied the communion and the right to speak in the church. It was rare and always hidden with the person being prayed for.<br /><br />The Anabaptists do not shun a person for changing churches or for adopting modern dress &c.. with the exception of the Old Order Amish (and even then they do think themselves the true church) and the Holdeman Mennonites who have no links with other Anabaptists.<br /><br />However if a baptised church member disobeys a biblically based church rule, he/she would be spoken to and sometimes avoided, but not shunned.This is down to an Anabaptist principle of obedience and submission.Obedience and submission are very important- they are how Anabaptists hold a church together and then the bible does place emphasis on submission. This is one reason why Anabaptists adhere to the plain dress, it's a unity with the church as the people rather than a building.So if someone breaks this unity it creates a crack in the church (the people) and that person then may be avoided.Lucyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10832572614630264634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-61257422078851810872010-01-24T14:09:27.432-08:002010-01-24T14:09:27.432-08:00The Anabaptist shunning is not a view that Anabapt...The Anabaptist shunning is not a view that Anabaptists think that they are they one, only church- even if it looks like that. Shunning is mentioned in the NT.It's to be used when a baptised adult church member disobeys certain laws and does not repent them.The rules concern:<br /><br />-those who deliberately cause trouble and teach doctrines opposite to biblical doctrines. (Romans 16:17) <br /><br />-those who love themselves, who love money, who are prideful, who disobey their parents, who are unholy, who hate good, who are conceited, who are cruel, who lie, who blaspheme, who love pleasure rather than God and who act pious but are not. (2 Timothy 3:2-5)<br /><br />-those who are sexually immoral, those who are greedy, those who slander others, those who are drunkards, those who woship idols and those who swindle others. (1 Corinthians 5:11-13)Lucyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10832572614630264634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-54318539544801417302010-01-24T14:09:01.478-08:002010-01-24T14:09:01.478-08:00I actually have no church... :( There is one 8 hou...I actually have no church... :( There is one 8 hours away and one starting in a nearby country.In the summer however I intend to visit a Hutterite friend!! <br /><br />dLucyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10832572614630264634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-35504300419527270542010-01-24T14:08:00.627-08:002010-01-24T14:08:00.627-08:00I know there is irony in me saying this on the int...I know there is irony in me saying this on the internet in all the places, but the internet is my only access to other Anabaptists. (There are quite a few Anabaptists who do use the internet, some just for email or work purposes but as the Anabaptists have become encouraged into missionary work, they use the internet to maintain contact with their church and family at home.)Lucyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10832572614630264634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-67969627307622759282010-01-24T14:06:20.389-08:002010-01-24T14:06:20.389-08:00Another reason why I believe that Anabaptists live...Another reason why I believe that Anabaptists live like the early Christians is because they hold fast to the biblical ordinances and this is because they avoid the worldly ways I mentioned above. Most churches suffer erosion and the more they adopt modern ideas and discard the old ways for the new ways, the more they loose the original Christian faith.<br /><br />An excellent example is headcovering in the Catholic church.Catholic women always covered their heads but now no one does as you know R.A.Its forgotten by most, Catholic and Protestant.I was told that long hair was the covering and when I discovered headcovering it was on an Anabaptist website and it was Anabaptists who gave me books on the matter and my veil.This is what I mean by Anabaptists living like the early Christians.There are however a few plain Catholics on the web who took inspiration from the Anabaptist motto <i>in the world but not of the world</i> and they have returned to headcovering.Of course there are a few other aspects abandoned by many churches, not just the covering.Lucyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10832572614630264634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-78978966060404456332010-01-24T14:05:31.050-08:002010-01-24T14:05:31.050-08:00Joseph there's no need to apologise! You haven...Joseph there's no need to apologise! You haven't said anything offensive.<br /><br />R.A for me Anabaptists live like the early Christians because they eschew the modern and worldly things in the world.I see it not as being backward but as removing objects from my environment that could cause me to stumble.An example of this is the TV. I grew up without one because of this, not because TV is "bad", but because it could have a negative influence.I do feel that the constant competition in worldly gain is unsatisfactory and is a way to making others feel bad when they cannot afford X item.Lucyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10832572614630264634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-5359749039943379262010-01-22T13:43:41.700-08:002010-01-22T13:43:41.700-08:00Well, I do agree with you that heresies were formi...Well, I do agree with you that heresies were forming by the end of the New Testament, including the Gnostic one that would become very widespread soon. I think we just have massively different opinions about what the early Church really was (I wrote a blog post about this on my blog, btw, I forgot to mention that in my last reply.) <br /><br />I think sometimes I can get a little too adversarial, mostly because I love the Catholic Church and defend her as the truth from Peter till today. Sorry if I was at all uncharitable.~Joseph the Workerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07512362705041608396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-75941565833393632492010-01-22T13:39:14.770-08:002010-01-22T13:39:14.770-08:00Just out of curiosity, as I visited your blog earl...Just out of curiosity, as I visited your blog earlier, what kind of church do you attend? Do you only consider yourself anabaptist or do you belong to mennonite/hutterite group?<br /><br />there are many wise teachings in the anabaptist movement, which I was drawn to for a time. (I really thought about attending a mennonite church/school) I picked St. Rose of Lima as my patron saint at confirmation because she tried to make herself as plain and humble as possible, despite her beauty, to glorify God. At that point in my life I was really drawn to dressing in one color skirts/dresses and not wearing makeup, minimal jewelry etc. I still try and adopt a more humble and toned down look for modesty's sake, but I am a far cry from anabaptist standards.<br /><br />I'm glad you're a reader here, I like your input/opinions!Charisms on Campushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14312118662106641305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-36933159500639757462010-01-22T13:31:52.849-08:002010-01-22T13:31:52.849-08:00wow I didn't even know this was going on still...wow I didn't even know this was going on still lol<br /><br />Lucy, I have always been intrigued by anabaptists, but have never had the opportunity to speak with one. You made a comment in response to joseph about how the anabaptists strive to live like the early Christians, but I don't exactly understand. Anabaptists don't really have much in common with the early christians from my pov. The way they appear reminds me of the Duggars on TLC. Like ultra-conservative/ fundamentalist. <br /><br />The early Christians lived in many sects like you listed, but in my bible it does have a papal list starting with peter and onward. To me that shows that Catholic ideas and traditions were forming and being passed down. The RCC did not have to be there for its ideas to be...and it's the only "early sect" to have stabilized during opposition and survived thousands of years.<br /><br />And you said they shun...is that not a way of saying "this is the one true church/beliefs" because if someone disagrees, they're completely cut off. That's a way to keep everyone believing one thing without leeway.Charisms on Campushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14312118662106641305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-3987414569710686982010-01-22T13:18:24.940-08:002010-01-22T13:18:24.940-08:00My humble apologies for hurting you deltaflute.It ...My humble apologies for hurting you deltaflute.It was not my intention.<br /><br />Joseph I understand your point, but I do not believe that Paul was a heretic.That said I am hesitant to really think of these early Christians as heretical.Things were different then.People didn't have a bible to consult then, even the church elders.They relied on the apostles' letters.The trinity did not exist as it is today.It consisted of just God and Jesus for a while.When Catholicism emerged it became the dominant form of Christian and with it everything else became "heretical". <br /><br />Have you noticed that the some of those group's teachings have returned?For one the church I grew up in denied the Trinity and was Arianists (I left and <i>fast</i> too.)The Pentecostal crowd sound like the Montanists.<br /><br />Another important thing to note is that the NT condemns the behaviour of the Ebionites, which proves to me that some of those Christian groups existed in Paul's day, even if they did not have a name at the time.Naturally the 1st Christians were just Christian but later I do believe that many splinter groups appeared.dLucyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10832572614630264634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-68260616001103956902010-01-22T12:14:01.432-08:002010-01-22T12:14:01.432-08:00I just wanted to say that the remarks about Anabap...I just wanted to say that the remarks about Anabaptists are not my own. People can categorize things how they like.<br /><br />Some people view Orthodox Catholics (like Greek Orthodox Catholics) as being in a different category from the broad term of Catholic because they don't follow Rome and the Pope. But the word Catholic has nothing to do with what you follow. It just means universal.<br /><br />So I break it down this way<br />I. Catholic<br />A. Roman Catholic<br />B. Eastern Catholic<br />1. Byzantine<br />2. Armenian<br />C. Eastern Orthodox Catholic<br />1. Russian Orthodox <br />2. Greek Orthodox<br /><br />And then Protestants (which just means "in protest of") like this <br />II. Protestants<br />A. Baptists<br />1. Southern Baptists<br />2. Missionary Baptists<br />Etc.<br />B. Methodists<br />C. Lutherans<br />D. Anglican/Episcopalian<br />E. Presbyterian<br />F. Anabaptists<br />1. Mennonites<br />2. Amish<br />G. Pentecostal <br /><br />For a better looking break down<br /><br />http://catholicqna.blogspot.com/2009/12/are-catholics-christians.html<br /><br />And I didn't get this info from my head. It's broken down this way in many sources including Wikipedia. If you feel that Anabaptists should not be categorized this way, then feel free to address this under the topic of Christianity where it explains it. I didn't come up with this. So stop yelling at me about what Jehovah's witnesses are or Anabaptists are. If you have a problem, then go out and change the text books. <br /><br />Otherwise I'm out of this discussion. You guys are getting really rediciously over heated about something as trivial as how people categorize things.<br /><br />Again, stop yelling at me.Deltaflutehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489950329698009256noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-72266531726130738922010-01-21T17:40:13.282-08:002010-01-21T17:40:13.282-08:00Donatist:
The Donatists (named for the Berber Chr...Donatist:<br /><br />The Donatists (named for the Berber Christian Donatus Magnus) were followers of a belief considered a schism by the broader churches of the Catholic tradition, and most particularly within the context of the religious milieu of the provinces of Roman North Africa in Late Antiquity. They lived in the Roman province of Africa and flourished in the fourth and fifth centuries.<br />Like the Novatianist schism of the previous century,[1] the Donatists were rigorists, holding that the church must be a church of saints, not sinners, and that sacraments, such as baptism, administered by traditores (Christians who surrendered the Scriptures to the authorities who outlawed possession of them) were invalid.[2] Probably in 311, a new bishop of Carthage was consecrated by someone who had allegedly been a traditor; his opponents consecrated a short-lived rival, who was succeeded by Donatus, after whom the schism was named.[2] In 313, a commission appointed by Pope Miltiades found against the Donatists, but they continued to exist, viewing themselves, and not what was known as the Catholic Church, as the true Church, the only one with valid sacraments. Because of their association with the Circumcellions, they brought upon themselves repression by the imperial authorities, but they drew upon African regional sentiment, while the Catholic party had the support of Rome. They were still a force at the time of Saint Augustine of Hippo at the end of the fourth century, and disappeared only after the Arab conquest of the 7th-8th century.[2]<br />Monatist:<br />The beliefs of Montanism contrasted with Orthodox Christianity in the following ways:<br />The belief that the prophecies of the Montanists superseded and fulfilled the doctrines proclaimed by the Apostles.<br />The encouragement of ecstatic prophesying, contrasting with the more sober and disciplined approach to theology dominant in Orthodox Christianity at the time and since.<br />The view that Christians who fell from grace could not be redeemed, also in contrast to the orthodox Christian view that contrition could lead to a sinner's restoration to the church.<br />A stronger emphasis on the avoidance of sin and church discipline than in Orthodox Christianity. They emphasized chastity, including forbidding remarriage.<br />Some of the Montanists were also "Quartodeciman" ("fourteeners"), preferring to celebrate Easter on the Hebrew calendar date of 14 Nisan, regardless of what day of the week it landed on. Orthodox Christians held that Easter should be commemorated on the Sunday following 14 Nisan. (Trevett 1996:202)<br /><br />Novatian:<br /><br />He held that idolatry was an unpardonable sin, and that the Church had no right to restore to communion any who had fallen into it. They might repent and be admitted to a lifelong penance, but their forgiveness must be left to God; it could not be pronounced in this world. <br /><br />None of those sound like St. Paul to me, especially since they all came around much later than his writings.~Joseph the Workerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07512362705041608396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-47179991679555578632010-01-21T16:06:08.814-08:002010-01-21T16:06:08.814-08:00Joseph, I believe that Paul was a Montanist/Donati...Joseph, I believe that Paul was a Montanist/Donatist/Novatian.Jesus lived as a poor man and was an example that life is more than treasures on earth.His disciples would have carried that on after Jesus.The most obvious example is the Christians in Acts 2:42-47.These people share everything.Paul would have been influenced by this.That those today who believe that conservative Christians are Pauline Christian- with the added implication that such people were worshipping Paul rather than Jesus.<br /><br />But what do you mean unfortunately being rather too familiar with Anabaptists?What's wrong with striving to live as the early Christians did?Lucyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10832572614630264634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-66918824507473283022010-01-20T21:51:54.513-08:002010-01-20T21:51:54.513-08:00And then there are the Quakers, who are a varied l...And then there are the Quakers, who are a varied lot, but none of them practice either baptism or communion in any physical sense in their congregations, nor - traditionally - do they even have clergy. The responsibility for the spiritual care of the congregation is viewed collectively. Other than that, the Quakers - especially the Conservatives - are in many ways similar to the Anabaptists.<br /><br />Paul had been a Pharisee before accepting Jesus as Messiah. After that, he was too busy traveling on missionary journeys to be able to call any one group or place 'home'. He was an apostle, and his home was in Christ and in the Scriptures.caraboskanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-58056036371188977332010-01-20T17:13:44.553-08:002010-01-20T17:13:44.553-08:00Thanks for your response to my question about St. ...Thanks for your response to my question about St. Paul. I came from a Protestant group with an Anabaptist history, so unfortunately I am all too familiar with then.~Joseph the Workerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07512362705041608396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-54724281143250126512010-01-20T13:23:57.645-08:002010-01-20T13:23:57.645-08:00Those mainstream churches have happy-clappy youth ...Those mainstream churches have happy-clappy youth services, embrace middle class values and people turn up casually dressed to church.Anabaptist churches in contrast have people who drive a horse & buggy or a dull coloured cheap car and who dress plainly with the headcovering and whom worship either in the home as the 1st Christians did or in a plain church that doubles as the school.<br /><br />Consider this: <br /><br />Most Protestants will go to court or join the army.Anabaptists do not.<br /><br />Most Protestants baptize babies and children.Anabaptists baptize adults & often after a 6-12 month teaching period.<br /><br />Very few Protestants dress plain or indeed modestly.All Anabaptists do.<br /><br />Many Protestants have a creed.Anabaptists do not. <br /><br />Many Protestants have fancy churches.Anabaptists do not.<br /><br />Most Protestants view individuality as a good thing. Anabaptists do not.<br /> <br />Protestants do not give the holy kiss.Anabaptists do.<br /><br />Protestants do not wash their neighbour's feet during communion. Anabaptists do.<br /><br />Most Protestants have TVs and radios in the home.Anabaptists do not.<br /><br />Protestants tend to have small families.Anabaptists have large families.<br /><br />Protestants live both in the country & the city.Anabaptists keep to the country and small towns.<br /><br />Protestants can pursue higher education.Anabaptists general do not and if they do it is at a strict Anabaptist college.<br /><br />Protestants do not shun. Anabaptists shun adulterers, thieves and fornicators that do not repent.<br /><br />Protestants do not live in a spiritual community.Anabaptists do. If anyone is sick or in need that person is provided for with food, housing and money.<br /><br />Protestants can work as lawyers, civil servants and policemen. Anabaptists do not. <br /><br /><br />To clarify, there are more than just 2 branches of Christianity. There are 4:<br /><br />Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox & Anabaptist.<br /><br />If you like you put it as Protestant & Anabaptist as cousins and Catholic and Orthodox as siblings.Lucyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10832572614630264634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-20885906672984186432010-01-20T13:23:42.923-08:002010-01-20T13:23:42.923-08:00Main stream Protestanism is generally referred to ...<i>Main stream Protestanism is generally referred to as Anglican/Episcopalian, <b>Anabaptist</b>, Presbyterian, and Lutheran among others. They are called <b>main stream</b> because they "main streamed" or directly broke from Catholicism. They also tend to retain more of those traditional Catholic elements.</i><br /><br />As an Anabaptist I was most amused at the above comments.It is time to correct a few misunderstandings.<br /><br />Anabaptism began around the same time as Reformation but there is little to say that Anabaptists emerged from Protestantism.In fact, those early Anabaptists influenced Luther's reforms.<br /><br />Despite this, Protestantism and Catholicism both prosecuted Anabaptists as heretics.At the time Anabaptists were seem as radical rebels and even now they are anytime but "mainstream".I have encountered many different forms of Christianity (Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, Anglican, Methodist,Hutterite, Amish, Mennonite, Elim, Plymouth Brethren), including mainstream Protestants and I assure you deltaflute that Anabaptists are neither mainstream nor Protestant. Too assume that a non-Catholic Christian must be Protestant is too narrow an assumption to make. <br /><br />I've attended both Protestant and Catholic schools and as an Anabaptist I stuck out like a sore thumb.I hadn't known I was Anabaptist at the time, but almost everything the Protestants & Catholics agreed in I disagreed with.As a kid, I embarrassed a Catholic bishop by knowing the scripture a little too well and found the Catholic priest could not answer my theological questions.As a teenager, I accidental embarrassed a very nice Anglican priest and found that both she & another Anglican priest could not answer my questions.I wanted to know why women weren't covering their hair any more when 1 Cor 11 requests it, why someone in the army would claim to be Christian when Jesus said to accept abuse & love the abuser, why churches would publicly honour donors when Jesus said to be discreet about donations & prayer, why people insisted on having big expensive churches when a plain one would do the same and leave extra money for the poor, why a priest would live the life of luxury when Jesus lived a life of poverty &c..Lucyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10832572614630264634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-70636647494771578282010-01-20T12:06:25.414-08:002010-01-20T12:06:25.414-08:00Lucy -
Out of curiosity, which one of those group...Lucy -<br /><br />Out of curiosity, which one of those groups do you think St. Paul was a part of?~Joseph the Workerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07512362705041608396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-80445970786393554142010-01-20T12:03:49.290-08:002010-01-20T12:03:49.290-08:00The Catholics MADE the bible people!
I feel like....<i>The Catholics MADE the bible people!<br /><br />I feel like...had the Bible been the basis of the Church (i.e created prior to the creation of the church itself) then I could see the point. Maybe the sola scriptura is the true way to understand Christianity. But that's not how it was. The Church created the Bible.</i><br /><br />The bible and Christianity both were in existence <b>before</b> the birth of catholicism. The Christian groups that existed before the very idea of catholicism began were:<br /><br />-the Ebionites (Jewish converts who insisted in keeping the Jewish laws & whom believed that the messiah was only for the Jews)<br /><br />-the Marcionites (who believed the god in the OT was not the Christian god & evil)<br /><br />-the Adoptionists ( who believed that Jesus was a mere man who had been adopted by God and made a god)<br /><br />- the Arianists (who denied Jesus's divinity)<br /><br />-the Gnostics (who believed that the god in the OT was not the true god & whom adopted other beliefs)<br /><br />-the Marcionists (who believed that Jesus's mission was to overthrow the evil god of the OT & whom hated Jews) <br /><br />-the Montanists (who believed in a simple, celibate life & in speaking in tongues)<br /><br />-the Donatists & the Novatians (who believed the same as the Montanists but also in adult baptism)<br /><br />-the Monarchists (who believed that God was only one being)<br /><br />All these groups died out under catholic rule.<br /><br /><br />The bible was wrote by Jews, not by any Christian groups.It was much later after the bible was wrote when the catholics collected all the books of the bible & put them together. This is very different to the claim of "making the bible".If you edited and arranged a collection of essays by a group of authors into a book and then claimed you "made" the book you would end up in court with a huge fine.The same applies.Lucyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10832572614630264634noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-36598836298207665882010-01-15T06:49:15.600-08:002010-01-15T06:49:15.600-08:00And that is what I shared with the Catholic priest...And that is what I shared with the Catholic priest I got into a discussion with about these matters in a train to Minsk, of all places, back in those dark days... He didn't know, and he was worried about it, and I said, 'I don't know either, frankly, but I do know it is possible to know...' God's Word as revealed in the Scriptures had to be enough for me then, and it is enough for me now. May it be enough for all of us, God willing.caraboskanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-78860089330603173362010-01-15T06:48:59.251-08:002010-01-15T06:48:59.251-08:00My knowledge about Catholic doctrine concerning sa...My knowledge about Catholic doctrine concerning salvation, baptism, communion, priesthood, confession and the like is based on having read a very detailed study of these matters where the person looked at official Catholic catechetical publications from as many different time periods as possible to determine what each one said about these subjects. He concluded that there has been no material change in any of these matters, and that many Catholics are not aware of the true content of their catechetical books in these matters, and then set forth the official teaching in the actual words of each publication.<br /><br />Besides that, I live in a country that is 95% Catholic, number among my friends a certain number of devout Catholics, at least one of whom is presently writing a doctoral dissertation in Catholic theology. I have had the 'works vs. faith' discussion with him in particular. A former pastor of mine here also got a doctorate in Catholic theology before becoming a Protestant. Because the surrounding population is so overwhelmingly Catholic, certain matters do have to be brought up during sermons at the Protestant churches. Most of these churches are very much into ecumenism, however, so you aren't going to hear anyone telling you there God knows what about the Roman Church. In other words, I couldn't avoid Catholic theology where I am, even if I wanted to.<br /><br />I also point out that I have in no way been brainwashed. I grew up in a family of academics who believe in science rather than God, and am a Christian via a choice I made as (more or less) an adult. I will let you judge by the quality of my English what sort of university I might have attended. You do not even get admitted to such a school, much less graduate, unless you know how to think critically for yourself. And even my unbelieving parents, who try to claim I am 'intellectually defective' because I don't believe in evolution, have to admit that, as well as that it was precisely learning to read and study the Bible among Christians that taught me much of what I know today about thinking critically for myself.<br /><br />About the possibility of errors in Scripture: All Scripture is God-inspired and profitable for teaching, rebuke, correction and instruction. I think that there would have to be much more evidence within the books mentioned (e.g. Jonah) before we dismiss them as 'just stories'. Even Jesus referred to Jonah's having been in the whale's belly and being miraculously delivered. The one who thinks otherwise, but is willing to say tradition is without error, is placing tradition at an even higher place than Scripture. That is not something I am willing to do.<br /><br />It actually makes a HUGE difference what side of the equation one places works on. If we say our works contribute materially to our salvation, when it is said that God alone, not another, is the Savior, then we are placing those works in a position which God says is to be occupied solely by Him. In other words, we are committing idolatry. The worst possible kind of sin.<br /><br />I am also astounded to learn that it is possible for someone to think that they have already been saved, and then at the same time that no one can know if they are saved. The Bible says it is possible to know (in I John 5, if anyone is interested - I'd give the exact verse, but now that I think of it, better the whole chapter to get the context). That is what kept me in those dark days when I had doubts in this area: that it is possible to know, that there will be that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow when I set out to seek the means whereby I will know.caraboskanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-27530255494672057872010-01-14T19:20:21.064-08:002010-01-14T19:20:21.064-08:00Ah this discussion is a prime example of how compl...Ah this discussion is a prime example of how complex the Catholic faith is and how protestants, or any outsiders, can misconstrue it's teachings. <br /><br />I do firmly believe in respecting the faiths of others. This has been something I have failed to do in the past (my messianic congregation was always on the lookout for the antichrist and promoted intolerance) So lets keep it cool :) <br /><br />Caraboska, I don't want you to feel attacked or anything, but I can sympathize with the sentiments of feeling belittled. It's sooo hard to practice and even LEARN Catholicism because of the flack we get. On that christian forum alone I'm not even allowed to express my faith for fear of violating the rules. So express your beliefs (I'm all for that!) but try and really study the church's teaching on a subject before you downplay it! :)<br /><br />Congratulations deltaflute! such an exciting time!! I'll be praying for your safe & *not too painful* delivery :DCharisms on Campushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14312118662106641305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3427243111279814147.post-14977651647794618982010-01-14T18:43:20.777-08:002010-01-14T18:43:20.777-08:00Oh, much apologies to R.A. My sarcasm usually rem...Oh, much apologies to R.A. My sarcasm usually remains in my own head, but I'm on the verge of giving birth so my head's a little screwy and I have no patience for people who belittle my beliefs.<br /><br />I spent my entire life having to defend my religious beliefs. I grew up in the thumping hard Bible Belt. Caraboska just represents everything about ignorant people that gets to me. I don't understand why people make up stories in their heads about what Catholicism is about and what we do without actually studying it. I don't go around saying that Mormons are nuts because they have special undies and don't drink caffinated products. It's just not cool. We have to respect each other. <br /><br />Respecting a person's beliefs is different than believing them. But for some odd ball reason evangelicals see it as their duty to "save my soul" without knowing that my soul is already saved. I don't go around trying to convert them. I believe in explaining my beliefs when asked and by living my beliefs. I don't believe in attacking people especially without all the facts.<br /><br />This is why I'm glad that you mentioned that you don't understand why fundamentalists think that Catholics hate the Bible when it was us who decided what books should be included in it.<br /><br />People are easily dupped and brainwashed when they've never went to learn for themselves or questioned what they were told. That's why I like being Catholic. We're allowed to ask questions and find out the answers. Catholics don't feel this pressure to make people Catholic or to have them prescribe to a set of rules or a life style. <br /><br />There are so many different types of Catholics see my blog about some of them<br />http://deltaflute.blogspot.com/2010/01/catholic-different.html<br /><br />Hopefully this discussion will not continue for too long because I'll be giving birth. I'm soooo ready for it.Deltaflutehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00489950329698009256noreply@blogger.com